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There's artist and there's entertainers. Some groups or solo acts tend to do stuff that makes them money or give them superstar status. If that's what your after go get it. The spotlight only last for so long. Just make sure you take care of you finances cus ur money will be gone quicker than the spotlight. Now, I respect artistic ideas. People who claim to be artistic are the ones who try to go left instead of right. Try to change it up a little, invent something different, Change the direction of whats considered art at the time. Now don't get me wrong even Michael Angelo had to paint and sculpt to get paid but he still has his master pieces. I feel once a musician or group changes who they are in order to please the people or their pockets is considered selling out. You are no longer true to yourself or your art! Maybe Will I Am wanted to make club hits. I've known Will for a long time. He's always wanted to be a super star. He told me that he wanted to be the next Michael Jackson. Did he sell out when that was he intention the whole time? Maybe hip hop was just quickest way for him to get where he wanted to go. Do I think Jay Z sold out? Yes and no. You cant knock his lyricism. You can knock his swagger, you can knock his videos, you can knock his club hits but you cant knock his work ethic. He's where he wants to be. He's said it time and time again. "I want that green, I want that money, i'm after the benjamins". I dont have a problem with people saying they want to get paid from this rap game. I have a problem with those who say they're real or those who say "I am Hip Hop". I've heard a certain artist say that he could care less if he got paid from hip hop and then went on to say that he deserved 20'gs to play at a charity event. Bottom line is that it's up to the listener to decide what's real and whats not. I cant go to a club that plays top 20 and feel good about it. Yea, there's woman runnin around, great party vibe but did it make me feel better about life? Did I gain inspiration? Did the music touch me making me feel that a part of something special?

This is part of what makes UD awesome. If I offered you $20k, would you play at my house? (I don't particularly want Daft Punk playing at my house)

dizzy dustin wrote:There's artist and there's entertainers. Some groups or solo acts tend to do stuff that makes them money or give them superstar status. If that's what your after go get it. The spotlight only last for so long. Just make sure you take care of you finances cus ur money will be gone quicker than the spotlight. Now, I respect artistic ideas. People who claim to be artistic are the ones who try to go left instead of right. Try to change it up a little, invent something different, Change the direction of whats considered art at the time. Now don't get me wrong even Michael Angelo had to paint and sculpt to get paid but he still has his master pieces. I feel once a musician or group changes who they are in order to please the people or their pockets is considered selling out. You are no longer true to yourself or your art! Maybe Will I Am wanted to make club hits. I've known Will for a long time. He's always wanted to be a super star. He told me that he wanted to be the next Michael Jackson. Did he sell out when that was he intention the whole time? Maybe hip hop was just quickest way for him to get where he wanted to go. Do I think Jay Z sold out? Yes and no. You cant knock his lyricism. You can knock his swagger, you can knock his videos, you can knock his club hits but you cant knock his work ethic. He's where he wants to be. He's said it time and time again. "I want that green, I want that money, i'm after the benjamins". I dont have a problem with people saying they want to get paid from this rap game. I have a problem with those who say they're real or those who say "I am Hip Hop". I've heard a certain artist say that he could care less if he got paid from hip hop and then went on to say that he deserved 20'gs to play at a charity event. Bottom line is that it's up to the listener to decide what's real and whats not. I cant go to a club that plays top 20 and feel good about it. Yea, there's woman runnin around, great party vibe but did it make me feel better about life? Did I gain inspiration? Did the music touch me making me feel that a part of something special?

Errrghh, I'm sorry but I hate this type of view as much as I hate people who restrict themselves listening to only commercial artists do. The type of people who will turn their back on a band or artist the minute they have a bit of success.....

and thats why one of my fave hip hop crews are beastie boys..probably one of the biggest most mainstream groups around...i love nas also..so its not that i dislike artists when they get success..not at all...
like i said... each to his own..im sorry if ive offended or upset anyone,but thats my way..maybe its cause thats what i grew up with and never want the music to change,i know it has to because thats the way life is..everything changes,but..its hip hop...thats what it is mcs,djs.ah man.. ...no one probably understands me..so ill lock myself in a corner and have no freinds...

sorry...

bluff...

johnny bluff wrote:Errrghh, I'm sorry but I hate this type of view as much as I hate people who restrict themselves listening to only commercial artists do. The type of people who will turn their back on a band or artist the minute they have a bit of success.....

and thats why one of my fave hip hop crews are beastie boys..probably one of the biggest most mainstream groups around...i love nas also..so its not that i dislike artists when they get success..not at all...
like i said... each to his own..im sorry if ive offended or upset anyone,but thats my way..maybe its cause thats what i grew up with and never want the music to change,i know it has to because thats the way life is..everything changes,but..its hip hop...thats what it is mcs,djs.ah man.. ...no one probably understands me..so ill lock myself in a corner and have no freinds...

sorry...

bluff...

No need to to say sorry. This is a debate, this is great stuff. Shows that people are passionate. If this offends anybody they should take a look at their life and figure out whats really important. I know most of you guys personally and I believe that we're all open for debate and discussions. I think we all know that we respect each other in this forum and dont take anything personal. Or at least I'd like to think so?

Definitely not, it's just the internets and we're just having a discussion. I think we've proved many times we can all disagree strongly and debate the hell out of something and still all be cool with each other...*cough*Donnie Darko discussion*cough cough*

obie wrote:Definitely not, it's just the internets and we're just having a discussion. I think we've proved many times we can all disagree strongly and debate the hell out of something and still all be cool with each other...*cough*Donnie Darko discussion*cough cough*

oi

i.ve given a fast minute to read up this thread, and i'd like my 2 cents (as ice t once said, who gives a f*ck) and cuz i know his taste so well, i think i can speak for my man johnny bluff too.

hip hop to me is something you feel, and i think thats what was meant the first time the phrase was coined. if jrs is feelin his sh*t then thats cool, its working for him, but for me and bluff, we go deep, we love the crates, we love the modern crates, googlethatshit.com/hip hop blogs etc, we crave new artist, new direction, and new ideas. there isnt a day that goes by that we havent found a new artist or album to check, we follow instincts, we jump on a name, a featured artist, and feeling, sometimes(most times the be sure) it leads to awful hip hop, but just sometimes we find THAT artist thatll open the door to a whole new stlye of hip hop (i still remember the day my hip hop love changed dramatically when i first fell on j rawls, at the time hip hop was just eminem, and looking back that is embarressing) and he showed me that different way of looking at hip hop, he made it sound so beautiful that i could never again accept weak hip hop, it made me ultra critical of anything that doesnt live up to expectations.

i cant apologise for hating on artist like jay z, black eyed through to charlie 2na if theyre sellin out, they've gone from my radar, i just dont have any love for that sh*t, hell ill sing along to the radio when 'i got a feeling' comes on(an example, not fact) but then again i'll probably sing britney out load in ther shower, its pop music, and imo no longer hip hop, the real sh*t has got to make me feel, its got to make my head nod, its gotta make me want to find every artist that is signed to the label theyre signed to, its gotta make me want to travel 100miles on an evening after a 10 hour shift, to watch their one and only uk gig midweek(and not pay £45 to wtach them rap over some bullsh*t laptop no dj backing track)

the other grey area is the piracy issue, peeps get their ass all up in a knot over it, its real, its current, and if you dont like it unfortunately nowadays you are very much the underdog minority. i do dl, alot, how the f*ck would i get to listen to it all, but remember this back in the day, one dude would buy that one vinyl album available in the store, and we'd record(tdk 90 ) the sh*t out of it so all our friends would have a copy, and it didnt mater who was paying and that is just old skool piracy so not alot has changed there has it.

i try and represent every artist i see with merch store, that may be a token, but its my way of showing that love, if i was loaded, i'd pay dizz and the boys big dollars to play my garden party lol, but i aint, ive bought tshirts at almost every hip hop gig ive attended, and ive bought cd's direct from the merch stand, direct payments to the artists(hell ive also given away things to smoke if you know what i mean), and i always promote every gig i go to just to try and put extra cash in the artists pocket, but you know what, just like when im tattooing people, the cash is king, but the love is the payoff.

im proud of the way i love hip hop, ive been this way for probably 28 years, and i'll never lose the love of real, good for the soul hip hop. and no one is disrespecting anyone for their taste in hip hop, sometimes, we just cant see how one fan can not feel the same as you about it.

hope i didnt bore you guys

Well, like Pipe I took time to read this thread. I put my opinion aside because honestly, I don't claim to know what hip hop is to other people. I grew up listening to the more gangster side of rap/hip hop ; and slowly moved on from there as I reached the age of reason.

My question being for you Dustin. You were talking about how you consider changing ones musical style to appeal to the things people want makes you less of an artist. My question is, isn't that what being a musician is all about? I've never been in the Music industry, but my Aunt has put out a couple albums; and knowing her like I do...She would agree with you. I just don't see why.

I'm 20 years old man, so forgive the lack of knowledge but; I always thought someone who would change their style for the sake of their music (and if I'm correct, a scale of ones music is partially sales right?) and their fans to be a good artist.

Was I missing something?

No disrespect meant, I'm just in the dark, and looking for a little light to go with my UD fan jacket.

Alec wrote:Well, like Pipe I took time to read this thread. I put my opinion aside because honestly, I don't claim to know what hip hop is to other people. I grew up listening to the more gangster side of rap/hip hop ; and slowly moved on from there as I reached the age of reason.

My question being for you Dustin. You were talking about how you consider changing ones musical style to appeal to the things people want makes you less of an artist. My question is, isn't that what being a musician is all about? I've never been in the Music industry, but my Aunt has put out a couple albums; and knowing her like I do...She would agree with you. I just don't see why.

I'm 20 years old man, so forgive the lack of knowledge but; I always thought someone who would change their style for the sake of their music (and if I'm correct, a scale of ones music is partially sales right?) and their fans to be a good artist.

Was I missing something?

No disrespect meant, I'm just in the dark, and looking for a little light to go with my UD fan jacket.

Changing ones style for artistic reasons is cool with me. Thats what makes an artist a artist. Hell, I have a whole side project that sounds nothing like Ugly Duckling. What i meant was when you change your artistic view to please others, to gain rock star status, or to fill you're pockets, I believe that you have sold out your artistic values. You are no longer doing art for the sake of art. Now not all musicians consider themselves artists? Like I said in my previous post. Some are entertainers, meaning they/re there to entertain people, write songs that the people will enjoy, be able to dance to. They do this because they love to entertain, they love the spot light. There's nothing wrong with that. Art lives on with or with out the side show. Know what i'm saying?

lol, I can get passionate when discussing it, but I never take offence to it.

Healthy debate like this is great for this website, always better to have a few debates than everyone just agreeing with each other. Generates more interest.

Dizzy; i see what you mean now. i failed to see the last part about changing styles for the wrong reason.

I must also say Dustin, that your reply just goes to show your level of talent as not only a Musician, but an artist. More importantly though, it shows you've got down to earth logic; which if anything is what today is missing.

So, I guess to answer the thread's title....Ugly Duckling is new, and that's all we need; Right Yudees?

Thanks for the reply DD.

Some interesting and completely valid points & opinions here. I also wish I hadn't missed out on that Donnie Darko bit.

I guess I'm a fence sitter. My views are a lot less exclusive to hip hop than you guys would be, as it takes up probably 1/8th of my music collection (if that). That said, the points raised are equally valid for any genre.

For me making music to make money doesn't constitute a sell out. There's also often more to it than selling out. U2's Achtung Baby is a classic example (from what I understand). When it came out, I rushed out & bought it because it was U2. I was young and enjoyed the album. As I listen to it retrospectively, I honestly struggle to see what I liked about it. The album was made as a contractual obligation and it seems they did little to hide that fact. The artist formerly known as The Artist Formerly Known As Prince is the same, which is why he changed his name to Love Tool or whatever it was.

In my opinion, yes U2 did sell out from there on in, but it worked for them. I don't listen to anything after Rattle & Hum (or own, apart from Achtung Baby).

Look at the Idol franchise... Are they not breeding sell outs? I look at the line up of contestants for [Australian] Idol this year and I see some people with potential to be great singers who are less interesting than what I flushed this morning. The problem is that you have all these kids making them money by buying their music because they have a girly crush on them or "OMG bcoz there hawt LOL!" I actually get disheartened by the spirit (or lack thereof) of that show, but because it's music, I watch it. How is it fair that someone who has amazing talent struggles to be known and works their arse off, yet you have these kids who can sing karaoke get it made?

Another side thought; I am actually a sell out in my own way. I'm known amoung my friends as the music guru. But they're the commercial radio zombies, too. Every time I put my music on, it lasts for 3 songs (if that) before I get told to turn it off and put on "something we all know." I now have a fair bit of music that I have bought because I don't mind it, but know my friends would like.

At the end of the day, if they make money AND good music, then I'm happy. If they make shite music, I won't buy it. That's why I refuse to listen to commercial radio and subscribe to community radio stations who aren't playlisted.

I'm rambling and boring. Sorry.

gary barry gordon wrote:Another side thought; I am actually a sell out in my own way. I'm known amoung my friends as the music guru. But they're the commercial radio zombies, too. Every time I put my music on, it lasts for 3 songs (if that) before I get told to turn it off and put on "something we all know." I now have a fair bit of music that I have bought because I don't mind it, but know my friends would like.

Sadly I am in the same boat here, especially with my g/f. I've got quite a few albums on my ipod now just because she likes it and its listenable (Black Eyed Peas albums are a perfect example), my brother is really into metal/ska/punk so if me and him are drinking we can usually find something that might sit well with both of us, I've put him on to Ill Bill and Necro, and he also quite likes Everlasts past few albums. In turn he's put me onto quite a bit of Sublime, Transplants and plenty of metal and rock.

JRS_One wrote:Sadly I am in the same boat here, especially with my g/f. I've got quite a few albums on my ipod now just because she likes it and its listenable

Bro, that's called Mandatory Diplomacy. Lmfao.

Gary, I like how you put that counter-point. I wouldn't call you a fence sitter though; let's call it musical open mindedness. I'm the same way; I listen to so many different genres, I guess it's possible I've stopped thinking about a persons sell out status because of that.

However, the next time I hear "Good googly moogly" I'm going to puke. That's in a whole different class then my genre FUBARness; or JRS' diplomacy, lol.

I was playing Nina Simone and was told, "Henry, turn that crap off! I don't like your alternative music!"

My jaw dropped.... Nina Simone, THE queen of jazz is alternative?! I mean seriously. I died a little inside (she's one of the mindless Matchbox 20 fans). It would be like saying I don't like Ugly Duckling because I don't like gangsta music, or Britney Spears can sing.

JRS_One wrote:

gary barry gordon wrote:Another side thought; I am actually a sell out in my own way. I'm known amoung my friends as the music guru. But they're the commercial radio zombies, too. Every time I put my music on, it lasts for 3 songs (if that) before I get told to turn it off and put on "something we all know." I now have a fair bit of music that I have bought because I don't mind it, but know my friends would like.

Sadly I am in the same boat here, especially with my g/f. I've got quite a few albums on my ipod now just because she likes it and its listenable (Black Eyed Peas albums are a perfect example), my brother is really into metal/ska/punk so if me and him are drinking we can usually find something that might sit well with both of us, I've put him on to Ill Bill and Necro, and he also quite likes Everlasts past few albums. In turn he's put me onto quite a bit of Sublime, Transplants and plenty of metal and rock.

Crazy thing is when I first got into Hip Hop back in 86/87 as an 11 year old kid, I would just lap up everything regardless of style or sub genre it fit into. Partly due to enthusiasm and lust for learning but also there wasn't that much exposure for Hip Hop in the UK at the time. As I grew older my love grew stronger and my tastes became more discerning.

Now I listen to a good mix of new underground ish and classic back in the day type ish. But.......I still love the odd excursion into the vicarious guilty pleasure of some straight gangsta type shizzle or some pure slackness.

The way I see it its like the difference between arthouse flick and the summer blockbuster, each horse for its own...errr....course (if that makes sense). Actually that analogy doesn't read as good as it sounded in my head but I hope you take my point.

The problem is most modern day Hip Hop is shit, but I think we forget quickly that some Hip Hop in the 80's and 90's was shit as well. It does seem like the ratio is getting worse though.

gary barry gordon wrote:I was playing Nina Simone and was told, "Henry, turn that crap off! I don't like your alternative music!"

My jaw dropped.... Nina Simone, THE queen of jazz is alternative?! I mean seriously. I died a little inside (she's one of the mindless Matchbox 20 fans). It would be like saying I don't like Ugly Duckling because I don't like gangsta music, or Britney Spears can sing.

WHHHAAAAAATTTT?!?!??!?, Hating on Nina Simone is not on.

deathofhifi wrote:The way I see it its like the difference between arthouse flick and the summer blockbuster, each horse for its own...errr....course (if that makes sense). Actually that analogy doesn't read as good as it sounded in my head but I hope you take my point.

Thats a great analogy actually.

Sometimes you want to watch a really well directed and acted film with a lot of plot and something that really challenges you.

Other times you want Transformers.

Its the same with my hip hop.

JRS_One wrote:

deathofhifi wrote:The way I see it its like the difference between arthouse flick and the summer blockbuster, each horse for its own...errr....course (if that makes sense). Actually that analogy doesn't read as good as it sounded in my head but I hope you take my point.

Thats a great analogy actually.

Sometimes you want to watch a really well directed and acted film with a lot of plot and something that really challenges you.

Other times you want Transformers.

Its the same with my hip hop.

True true, sometimes you want steak sometimes you want cheeseburger

the other grey area is the piracy issue, peeps get their ass all up in a knot over it, its real, its current, and if you dont like it unfortunately nowadays you are very much the underdog minority. i do dl, alot, how the f*ck would i get to listen to it all, but remember this back in the day, one dude would buy that one vinyl album available in the store, and we'd record(tdk 90 ) the sh*t out of it so all our friends would have a copy, and it didnt mater who was paying and that is just old skool piracy so not alot has changed there has it.

Dude please you can't compare tape to tape recordings between friends with mass internet piracy over p2p networks.
To coin a phrase (pulp fiction) "ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same freak' sport."

martymcfly wrote:

the other grey area is the piracy issue, peeps get their ass all up in a knot over it, its real, its current, and if you dont like it unfortunately nowadays you are very much the underdog minority. i do dl, alot, how the f*ck would i get to listen to it all, but remember this back in the day, one dude would buy that one vinyl album available in the store, and we'd record(tdk 90 ) the sh*t out of it so all our friends would have a copy, and it didnt mater who was paying and that is just old skool piracy so not alot has changed there has it.

Dude please you can't compare tape to tape recordings between friends with mass internet piracy over p2p networks.
To coin a phrase (pulp fiction) "ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same freak' sport."

how can you not compare it???

I think I said Donnie Darko was poop all those years ago didn't I?

Changed my mind, it's actually pretty good.

As for music, be honest. Sometimes you want a bit of In Da Club, but you might follow it up with Knowledge Me or Bassline, followed by Love Me Do, followed by Purple Haze, followed by Oops I Did It Again, all the while dancing around with a Darth Vader helmet on and nothing else but your underpants.

Just don't admit to it on a cool group's forum.

Oh crap...

Jam wrote:...Sometimes you want a bit of ... Oops I Did It Again, all the while dancing around with a Darth Vader helmet on and nothing else but your underpants.

Just don't admit to it on a cool group's forum.

Oh crap...

If not for the Mr Bungle reference, I would want you banned for that.

Seriously.

gary barry gordon wrote:

Jam wrote:...Sometimes you want a bit of ... Oops I Did It Again, all the while dancing around with a Darth Vader helmet on and nothing else but your underpants.

Just don't admit to it on a cool group's forum.

Oh crap...

If not for the Mr Bungle reference, I would want you banned for that.

Seriously.

Who????

pipehitterz wrote:

how can you not compare it???

I think he means in terms of exposure, i.e. you'll probably give out a couple of tapes to friends etc, whereas on P2P you'll share the music between hundreds of people or maybe even more (depending on how popular it is)

T

I think the main cause of shite hip hop is how cheap and easy it is to actually record music nowadays. Hell, I'm sure you can even record & remix a track on the iPhone... See this thread for point of interest Seriously, any geezer can lay a track, put it on Youtube and pass it off as a release.

Back in the olden days, we had a cassette recorder we would talk & giggle into.

The other thing is how readily available and easily accessible music is. We used to go to a mates place and were restricted by what tapes he had. Now you can get music before the bloody record labels have it!

(Oh, and Jam, I was joking)

deathofhifi wrote:...The problem is most modern day Hip Hop is shit, but I think we forget quickly that some Hip Hop in the 80's and 90's was shit as well. It does seem like the ratio is getting worse though.